AIC would like to thank Michael Lindemann and CNI News for their generous contribution of the following:

An Online Chat With Karla Turner

(During the chat Karla 's nickname is: "ThunderK")


4/5/95 6:17:56 PM Opening "KT Class 2 Log 4.5.95" for recording.


ThunderK : Hello, Michael and Jim.

ISCNIMikeL : Greetings, Karla!! You found the place, I see. Twenty, with five auditors, and yes, I sent out two reminders in fact. Ah, Karla, you have 20 signups, pretty good! And we expect a few more to sign up this week.

ThunderK : Michael, will you be doing an intro tonight? ga

ThunderK : Welcome, everyone...

ISCNIMikeL : Karla, I can if you wish. I actually planned to sit quietly (if possible) and just observe. What would you like? ga

ThunderK : All right with me! Have you read the quotation in the folder? ga

ISCNIMikeL : I do think we can wait another minute or two. Thanks to everyone for arriving on time. ga

NEW SOL : MIkel - Have you ever been able to sit quietly, :))

ISCNIMikeL : Linda, not very well. But when I'm real tired it's easier. :-)

NEW SOL : Glad you're here. I'll be right back!

ThunderK : I wish you could all attend the Ozark UFO conference, by the way...

ISCNIMikeL : Karla, maybe you should restate the quote, if it's not too long. ga

ThunderK : Michael, the quote is a full page, so I don't think it's worth taking that much time but of course I can relay the gist of it, at the beginning, and it will stay in the folder, okay? ga

ISCNIMikeL : OK. ga

ThunderK : Okay, let's go ahead with the present crew. First, welcome to you all, and thanks for your interest in what I feel is an extremely provocative idea, the theory that our species is witnessing a substantial change of some sort. I posted a lengthy quote from John White's book, "The Meeting of Science and Spirit," concerning some thoughts about this from several recognized 'enlightened' humans in the recent past. Is there anyone here who hasn't had a chance to read that yet? ga

ThunderK : Can I take that to mean that you've all read the folder, then?

NEW SOL : I just read it quickly.

ThunderK : Anyone else? ga

Phikent : illumination, right?

BMosley288 : Have read it.

ThunderK : Right! By the way, for those of you who are new to the online class session format we employ certain conventions to make the conversation flow more smoothly. When you wish to make a comment or ask a question, you can type an '!' for comment and a '?' for a question. Then please give me a chance to call on you I'll do my best to keep requests in order. The second convention is to add a 'ga' (for go ahead) when you're finished with your comments. If you must send your message before you've completed it, add three dots...and we'll know you have more to say. OK, any questions about this procedure? ga

Many of you are familiar to me from my first course here, and it's nice to see you again. Before we launch into a discussion of White's quote, I should tell you about the scope of this course and give you a quick outline for the remaining sessions. As the course prospectus noted, this began with two questions specific to the abduction phenomenon, namely,

(1) Why are abductees typically unaware of ongoing experiences until some later point in their lives when the repressed memories are awakened?

(2) If abduction activity has been a long-term situation on earth, why is it that our generation and society seems to be the first one to wake up, in massive numbers comparatively to activities that have been occurring for ages? Any questions about this starting point? ga

Dee777 : !

ThunderK : Yes, Dee, ga

Dee777 : Some abductions seem to be 'out of body experiences' or what seem to be dreams, and people just aren't aware that these can be 'REAL' experiences. ga

ThunderK : Exactly! Until, that is, they go through a particular experience and suddenly many more memories surface. This is the pattern reported by any number of researchers into abduction accounts, and I find it to be generally true. Yes, Red, ga.

Redshift9 : What is the evidence that abductions have been a "long term" situation? ga

ThunderK : Good question. The evidence rests upon interpretations of old accounts myths, legends, and religious writings, mainly as well as interpretations of certain archaeological findings. Such authorities as Vallee and Sitchin, for instance, have discussed this possibility. ga

ISCNIMikeL : !

ThunderK : Back to you, Dee, in my last course I discussed some reasons for the hidden memories from abductions, so I won't get back into that point for now. Yes, Michael, ga

ISCNIMikeL : It may be we are not the "first generation" as you say in the sense that many ancient cultures took "contact with the gods" for granted at some level. We may be in a recurrent pattern that seems very out of sync with our "scientific" paradigm, that pattern being a time of "mythic breakthrough" that deconstructs and reconstructs our belief systems. ga

ThunderK : Yes, this may indeed be our situation yet the fact that we can still seriously discuss a number of possible situations seems to indicate that we haven't generally recognized 'the' situation yet, I would think. There may indeed have been ancient contacts with the entities we know today from abduction accounts. It may also be the case that in
both the ancient and the current contacts, the entities have not/were not 'honest' with the humans who knew them? ga


ThunderK : Yes, Linda, ga

NEW SOL : Why do you say that?

ThunderK : Because at least in current reports, there is strong evidence of illusions and deceptions and verifiably false and unverifiable information coming from the abductors and if they are the same group as the ancients 'gods' then the possibility must remain for the older group, too. Yes, Kent, ga

Phikent : I'm notorious for asking about the white light experience. I believe that the illuminating experience is more than philosophical.There really is a white light that flares in the head. It starts with a chilling in the spine which travels upward to become a flare in the inner eye with added sensory effects such as the ability to see through closed eyelids - even a synesthesia sight sensation on other skin surfaces. Is there a neurological theory that would account for such experience? GA

ThunderK : Let's get a neurologist in here, somebody!...

Phikent : macros ga

ThunderK : I recognize some of your description from accounts of kundilini experiences, BTW, but for now, let's try to stay with the spefics of this course, ok? We don't know if abductions are an ancient practice, but it's part of the possible theories that impinge upon the idea of our current transformative process. Bob, ga

BMosley288 : Rather than dishonesty could it just be not making an explanation to an ant? ga

ThunderK : Yep, could be just that...

NEW SOL : That's what I think, too BOB.

ThunderK : but the amazing and bewildering variety of experiences that are part of the abduction scenario simply defy logical explanations many times and point to a much deeper involvement with us humans than we have with even our typical lab animals. Yes, Michael, ga

ISCNIMikeL : It's interesting that high cultures like the ancient Greeks, who had a very developed sense of beauty, goodness and justice, nonetheless spole of thier gods as being capricious, jealous, violent of taking sides, of warring amongst themselves, and also of coming down to have their way with the fair damsels of the land, etc. One would think the Greeks could imagine nicer gods than that, if it were a matter of imagination. ga

ThunderK : True! And those who try to explain this situation, without resorting to an extraterrestrial one usually discuss it in terms of the development of the human psyche and specifically of consciousness. For those of you who are interested in this approach, please check the reading list in the folder, BTW. Dee, ga

Dee777 : I think that in many cases, people thought they were seeing angels perhaps, or demons or even ghosts, and in mideval times, people were put in chains in dungeons screaming because they thought they had lost their minds and even to this day, aliens and UFOs are a taboo subject except perhaps one on one. Even in my own family, I can't discuss the subject openly. ga.

ThunderK : Yes, you may be right about how we have misinterpreted or misnamed this phenomenon in the past--and perhaps even today--Let me quickly give you a brief outline for the classes coming up. In the second session, we'll focus on the spiritual aspects of the hypothesized transformation or mutation or evolutionary leap that many of us sense is occurring. In the third session, the focus will be upon the biological aspects and the final class will discuss the intellectual/mental aspects as well as putting the various discussion threads together in some reasonable manner.

My starting theory or question concerns the leap of our species from a bicameral mode to a tricameral mode of some sort, and I'd like to define my use of these terms briefly. Although the term 'bicameral' has been used specifically to refer to the human psyche before the advent of consciousness as we know it today (as in Julian Jaynes' book) it has also been used in other ways, pointing to a bifurcation in the human psyche conscious and unconscious is one such bicameralism; mind and brain is another; in Greek terms it was expressed as 'psyche' and 'soma' and the difference was much as we make between brain and mind today. My use of bicameral refers to the conscious/subconscious duality and my reference to 'tricameralism' concerns the emergence of a new level of conscious perception and action. Any questions on these terms, before we go to the quote? Please don't be shy! ga?

BMosley288 : ?

ThunderK : Yes, Bob, ga

BMosley288 : Do you have a thought about what this third level is? ga

ThunderK : I have thoughts, yes, and perhaps they're wishful to a degree and I intend to share them as we progress, but of course I'm more interested in the thoughts of our class participants! For those of you who read the quote from White, do you have any beginning comments about the ideas expressed by such great visionaries as Richard Bucke, or Sri Aurobindo? Yes, Linda, ga

BMosley288 : ?

NEW SOL : Maybe you're about to get to this, but what kinds of new reports are you getting from abductees which indicate a kind of a more positive consciousness shift? It seems the White quote and many other things I've read support this idea of a shift to a higher (or tricameral) whatever new way that's my personal feeling too. But it seems if aliens are involved in this, that abductees would have first

ThunderK : The knowledge that abductees bring away from their encounters is very limited, first off, and comes from alien-controlled events on top of that, so 'knowledge' is not always what we get. There are a few things in the reports that could be evidence of a shift, including of course the accounts from contactees who generally report positive-seeming events and among abductees I feel that reports of events in which the abductees were able to break loose from control are indications of something changing with them as well as events in which the abductees are able to 'see through' illusionary scenarios as has happened on a number of occasions in the past couple of years. Yes, Bob, ga

BMosley288 : I read Bucke's Cosmic Consciousness years ago, and I thought his "Enlightenment" was strictly of a spirituual awakening thing while abductions are physical, biological. ga

ThunderK : True. Within the body of possible explanations for the abduction scenario, however are explanations that don't accept the physical reality of the events which seem so real to abductees, and also some explanation for even the real aliens say that they are working on us in an effort to assist our spiritual transformation into some new form of existence, so either way we have to consider the question of a spiritual component in all this. Now, back once more to the quote. How do you feel about White's remark that the great visionaries after all the negative things our recent history has produced, seem "like foolish dreamers" when they talk about the imminent emergence of the "supermind" or "cosmic consciousness" just around the corner for humanity? ga

ThunderK : Yes, Bob, ga

BMosley288 : I think all those bad things, wars, depressions, etc., make a need for dreamers more than ever. ga

ThunderK : You may be right, but that is a sad statement, isn't it? go ahead, Michael.

ISCNIMikeL : If we are in a time of "mythic Breakthru" as I mentioned earlier, then it is equally likely that "THe Way THings Are" becomes more rigid, more self-defensive and in a real sense more "crazy" in other words, a heightening of the opposites before the genuine breakthru. ga

ThunderK : Well, we're certainly seeing a global polarization that is frightening, I'd agree. Yes, your point about the descent into a chaotic state, which typically precedes any reorganization, is a good one. The 'status quo' is held onto even more tightly and extremely when it is threatened. This brings up, BTW, a point for later discussion about the need for a species to develop new coping mechanisms during stressful times that threaten its continued existence. Yes, Linda, ga

NEW SOL : Without "foolish dreamers" positive, forward, upwardly consciousness raising growth would not be possible. And while thinkers like White may be cutting edge, or perhaps even a bit too early there are many more now who are being widely accepted. i.e Celestine Prophecy, etc. it's like because of the chaos and lack of belief on the "rigid" ways we've had, people are searching and perhaps ready to make the consciousness leap because of the "bad" stuff. ga

ISCNIMikeL : !

ThunderK : Yes, Michael, ga

ISCNIMikeL : This too is not a new thing... In the Bhagavad Gita there's a line that says, in effect (spoken by God, by the way) that "Whenever things get REALLY terrible, that's when I make myself in the image of humankind and come forth again, to set things right. ga

ThunderK : Excellent! And though he never made any claims to divinity, Buckminster Fuller also said that while humanity has the potential to go forward peacefully, its history shows that it must be propelled by direst circumstances to go forward, kicking and screaming the whole way. Lest I leave Mr. White hanging, let me now finish the quotation for you. Then I'll have an assignment for the time between sessions. The rest of White's quote is this: "Perhaps, but only if evidence which supports and advances their view is lacking. Is there nothing but darkness in this world--nothing but blind selfish instincts, nothing but greed and aggression which seek to reduce life to the lowest level of brutality, masked only by a thin veneer of 'civilized' behavior? Is existence what novelist Joseph Contrad 'the horror, the horror'? I say there is something else." So please add this to the quote in the folder and before next week, I'd ask each of you to make a considered reply to the quote and post it in the folder. There will also be a new set of quotes for the basis of next class discussion. Our time is up for tonight, but if there are any pressing comments thus far, let's briefly listen to a few. If not, think about the evidence that you can come up with that would indicate a shift in our perceptions and reality that are apparent to you.

NEW SOL : Maybe us humans are starting to "get" it...:)

ThunderK : Maybe so! If so, why and how? And what does it mean for us today? All good questions! Michael, thanks for joining us tonight. You are always welcome back, you know.

ISCNIMikeL : Thank you , Karla, for an outstanding first session tonight. ga

ThunderK : And Jim, thanks for doing the 'chat log' for the class. See you all again next week and I'll be checking the log beginning on Sunday night. Bye for now, and thanks to you all!

Violet4u : :{applause]

NEW SOL : Interesting topic Karla, thanks!

BMosley288 : Enjoyed the class. I look forward to next. Nite all.

ISCNIAcad : Thanks, Karla. See you next week!

Phikent : Bye thankyou

Wolflady : thanks karla

Dee777 : Have a wonderful conference Karla.

ThunderK : You're all very welcome! Hope you all can contribute some great ideas next time!

Toneyterry : Thanks Karla - Good Night

ISCNIAcad : OK - I'll be signing off. See you all next week!

4/5/95 7:34:35 PM Closing Log file.