AIC would like to thank Michael Lindemann and CNI News for their generous contribution of the following:
An Online Chat With Karla Turner
(During the chat Karla 's nickname is: "ThunderK")
2/15/95 7:21:03 PM Opening "KT Class 2.15.95 #3 log" for recording.
ThunderK : Toney, please ga!
Toneyterry : Has anyone noticed a change in any abductees attitudes toward their abductors?
ThunderK : Yes, I certainly have. What about the rest of you?ga
Dee777 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Dee?ga
Dee777 : In the group I belong to, I see lots of anger where there used to be fear.
ISCNIMikeL : I think such a change, toward generally more positive, is one of the most puzzling things happening in abduction research today.
Toneyterry : !
ThunderK : Is there more, Michael, or is that a ga?
ISCNIMikeL : sorry, ga
ThunderK : Is it really puzzling? Or could it be what we might expect, given the widespread influx of info on the subject, as well as the opportunity for so many abductees to begin to investigate, or at least to ponder more openly on their experiences? Irene, please ga
ThunderK : Oops, I meant Toney, ga
Dee777 : !
Toneyterry : I totally agree! Some now think it is a wonderful experience/as before it was a nightmare. ga
ThunderK : And Dee, please ga
Dee777 : Karla, you have a standing invitation from the leader of my group to attend any one of our meetings and hear the pain and anger in the voices of real abductees. GA
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : Thanks, Dee! I do hear much of the emotional response from many abductees and that's one of the main reasons I have pursued this research. My husband and I felt very alone, sometimes frightened, often angry when we had to deal with our experiences in a vacuum and we vowed to do our best to help other people avoid such isolation and confusion if we ever could find a way to do so. Thus, we're in this work now. But as was pointed out earlier, many abductees tend to see their emotional and intellectual responses change as their knowledge grows and their experiences evolve (occasionally). Irene, you've got a comment? ga
KnoSys : !
IreneR757 : My feeling is they are "real abductees" also, but have perhaps fallen to a questionable agenda. ga
ThunderK : Let's back up a bit. What was the original meaning of 'real abductee' in your statement, Dee? ga
Dee777 : I belong to a UFO therapy group where every member is an abductee. ga
ThunderK : OK, but can you be more specific: do you know people you'd call 'unreal' abductees? ga
Dee777 : some just say they had a 'dream'. Others have conscious abductions. Some have had to watch their children be abducted while they were paralyzed. ga.
ThunderK : Yes, I see what you mean but it's true that many real abductees cannot handle, as yet, facing the reality of their experiences and prefer to use terms like 'dream' rather than recognizing what is actually occurring, because if they recognized the events as 'real' they would be forced to do something different! KnoSys, do you have a comment? ga
KnoSys : I don't understand why some people's experiences are so negative, and others' so positive if challenging. It's always challenging. ga
ThunderK : Good question but the data I've compiled and compared with other researchers' findings seem consistent on this that the majority of abductees have, in the course of time, both positive-feeling and negative-feeling experiences, often at the hands of the same entities. So that it's really rather rare for one person's total experiences to 'seem' all traumatic or all wonderful. I think we'd better start with the formal class now and to do that, I first want to know if there are questions or comments about last week's material. Irene, what about you? ga
IreneR757 : I have had to come at this from a recovery mode in that I look at the actions to define what is going on rather than my feelings about what is going on, as i said in my homework the more I look at this from a "daylight"
questioning as it were, the worsee it looks. ga
ThunderK : Toney, what about you? ga
Toneyterry : Just one comment before we begin class. Is it possible that this wide variety of emotions is exactly what the aliens want to solicit?
ThunderK : Oh, yes, I think that's a BIG possibility! And it's one of the theories that have been advanced to explain some of the more anomalous events reported by abductees. As I hope we'll find here, many events do not have any clear-cut purpose, at least from our POV, and often they seem to be strictly to elicit certain emotional responses. Barb, a comment before we go to the lecture? ga
Barb Byrd : Karla, I'd still like to see you go into your findings on the soul in the folders unless I've missed it somehow. ga
ThunderK : OK, but it will take me a little more time to formulate all my thoughts on the data and I'll probably save the in-depth discussion for a subsequent class. But I'd be glad to chat about this more informally in our folder this week. If AOL lets me stay on line long enough!...
IreneR757 : lol!
ThunderK : When we finished with last week's session, I had not covered all the topics I planned, and when I added them to the folder, I may have mixed up some topics from last class with topics I wanted to present tonight. So please forgive any overlap as I go on now. This class topic is Alien Lore and Metaphysics. I've defined 'lore' as information delivered by the aliens (of whatever variety) to abductees but which cannot be externally verified. To begin, let's look at the typical statements by aliens about their home or origin. In the earliest days of reported contact, does anyone recall where the aliens usually said they came from? Anyone?
Toneyterry : !
ThunderK : Yes, Toney, ga
Toneyterry : Venus?
ThunderK : Right, among others! What else?
TX90829 : Jupiter, ga
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : OK, another hot spot from the '50s. Anyone else recall an alien home planet? Irene, ga
IreneR757 : Native American lore says the moon. ga
ISCNIMikeL : !
ThunderK : Yes, and so did some of the earlier ETs. Yes,
ISCNIMikeL : Zeta Reticuli
ThunderK : Nope, sorry! Anyone else? ga
Toneyterry : !
ThunderK : OK, Toney? ga
Toneyterry : Barney and betty hills aliens came from Zeta ga
ISCNIMikeL : !
ThunderK : Well, perhaps but the aliens never said that. Where, in fact, did the Zeta connection begin? Anyone?
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Irene?
ISCNIMikeL : !
IreneR757 : From the woman who put together the star map from the Hills discription.
ISCNIMikeL : Right.
ThunderK : Bingo! And after that (Marjorie Fish, for those who want to look into this), then we began to get much later reports that aliens were implying an origin from Zeta Reticuli. Yes, Michael?ga
IreneR757 : ?
ISCNIMikeL : Nothing to add. It's been said.
ThunderK : OK, go ahead, Irene.
IreneR757 : roughly how many abductees are given locational info? I never have been. ga
ThunderK : Neither have I, to be honest, and it is rather rare to get reports of locations just as it is rather rare to get any info from the abducting aliens. My point in starting with the early cases is to show that the first contacts with entities almost exclusively involved a home planet within our solar system, but later this changed dramatically and we began to get reports of places that we had no possibility of checking out. Any thoughts about this change?
KnoSys : !
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Charley, ga
KnoSys : Were those '50s contacts genuine?
KnoSys : ga
ThunderK : I have no reason to doubt the stories of many of the early contact cases. But of course I wasn't around to personally interview them. However, from the subsequent research I would bet that these people really did have experiences of some sort. But why do you think the home planet info might change as it did?
KnoSys : !
TX90829 : !
ThunderK : Irene, ga
IreneR757 : Either the credibility of the witnesses is questionable, or more likely and more sinister as we were able to verify the location, we were given disinformation. ga
ThunderK : I have wondered about that, too, as we started to explore our solar system. Yes, Charley, ga?
KnoSys : Venus was an obvious choice, but I very much doubt that people like Adamski were for real.ga
ThunderK : There are still some very firm supporters of his accounts, however and I would more likely question the aliens' statements than the contactees, at least until there were reasons to think otherwise. Wayne, ga
TX90829 : Perhaps as we expanded our knowledge of space they changed their story.
ThunderK : Could well be! Toney, ga
Toneyterry : Has anyone ever heard of any abductees saying that the aliens say they come from our future?ga
ThunderK : I'm not familiar with any reports of this statement from aliens. What about others?
IreneR757 : nope
ThunderK : Michael, ga?
ISCNIMikeL : It seems to me odd that although popular literature was full of "men from Mars" most of the early contactees did not mention Mars as a planet of origin. I'd also add that Native Americans often said they derived from beings who came from the Pleiades (yikes, spelling)
ThunderK : Yes, there are some wonderful accounts of Native American lore about the sky people. KnoSys, ga
KnoSys : Human psychology is a reason "to think otherwise" about people's contact statements. People will be firm in the support of anything that excites them. ga
ThunderK : I think I understand what you're referring to, but as an abductee who has had almost everything questioned at one time or another and know how frustrating it is not to be able to supply 'hard evidence,' perhaps I'm more open to the accounts as being essentially honest although that does not mean I accept the accounts as accurate, which is quite a different matter. To continue with the topic, let's look at the aliens' accounts of their agenda. The mainstream perception of the purpose for the alien presence includes very few possibilities the first is that they are here to harvest genetic material to upgrade their degerate species, the second is that they're here to salvage (at least part of) the human species which is not going to survive indefinitely. A third explanation is that they are performing strictly scientific studies. A fourth is that they are here on a spiritual mission,... and finally we get reports that they are here either to observe or to intervene in a coming time of global catastrophe. What about any other explanations with which you are familiar?
KnoSys : That's most of 'em.
TX90829 : !
ThunderK : Yes, Wayne, ga
EXphyle : !
TX90829 : How about the possibility of Earth being part of an economic trade route? ga
IreneR757 : !
ThunderK : I think we should consider that possibility, but do we have any reports in which the aliens made such a statement? Let me know if any of you are familiar with such reports and for now, EXphyle, please ga.
KnoSys : One offered to buy Calif. from me for $27.
EXphyle : we are on a verge of an psyich evolotion and we are becoming aware and maybe calling them, ga
ThunderK : Again, a possible theory. But we are trying at first at least to look at Alien lore, the things THEY say to us. Yes, Michael, ga
ISCNIMikeL : There were quite a few reports, some years ago, that UFOs seemed to be harvesting water. ga
ThunderK : Right! And we still don't have a clue about their reasons. Yes, Irene? ga
IreneR757 : Is it even possible for us to come up with an agenda with out going way outside current thinking? ga
ThunderK : I hope so. But that's not the purpose here. We want to examine what they say which brings me to another bit of alien lore, which is the material relating to religious ideas. For instance, it is fairly common to get reports of events in which the aliens stress teachings of the separation of body and soul. They typically use the term 'container' to refer to the body and they emphasize the supremacy of the soul over the body in these cases. Yet in a number of situations where the abductees have been able to communicate with the aliens we get contradictory statements from them about their recognition of a god source some aliens have shown a recognizably 'Christian' slant to their statements, while in other cases, the aliens do not recognize the concept of 'god' as we use it here. Yes, Wayne ga
TX90829 : Which aliens talk about the soul, if known? ga
ThunderK : If you mean, which physical type, comments have been reported coming from Grays and from more human-looking entities. Also there are a handful of reports involving insectoids. Dee, ga
Dee777 : The aliens speak of reincarnation...in that they put souls right back into another body when the body dies. ga
ThunderK : Reincarnation or recycling?...
KnoSys : The aliens put them in?
ThunderK : I have two cases in which women, as young children, were shown a huge metallic sphere in space and were told that it was the place where souls were basically recycled. In one case the girl said she 'knew' that if she went into that sphere, she would not come out alive. Yes, Michael, ga
ISCNIMikeL : I've heard reports that some aliens claim to have made Jesus, or Jesus was an alien. Do you know of any abductee who has actually heard that claim?ga
ThunderK : Heck, yes! And even more, there are plenty of cases in which Jesus himself shows up for a cameo appearance but I think it's strange that in all these cases, the Jesus figure never looks Jewish, but rather appears as blond and blue-eyed. I have a good report on these lines in TAKEN, BTW...Irene, ga
IreneR757 : I don't know if this is related by my two earliest memories were of a "vision" of Christ/St.Michael...
ISCNIMikeL : Well, Jesus donesn't look very Jewish in most Christian depictions, either! ga
ThunderK : Wait!...
IreneR757 : and of a grey at the foot of my bed. I also saw the sphere you are talking about in a rebirthing...
ThunderK : I think I missed calling on Toney first, and then Charlie, so let's back up to Toney, please. ga
Toneyterry : I have come accross the term"The One"in many alien accounts (Fowler among others) I wonder is this GOD?
IreneR757 : several years ago in which I "remembered" my conception. THis is very puzzling to me. ga
Toneyterry : ga
KnoSys : So, is this Jesus reality or apparition or subjective perceptual distortion?
ThunderK : Could be, Toney, as in some cases the aliens use the term'god' but in other cases they seem to simply refer to a vague concept. Charley, you're next, please.
ThunderK : I would think that when we look at a number of parts of alien lore, we should wonder if the aliens aren't taking ideas and concepts from the minds of their subjects and then playing those back for them, as it were. We saw this, possibly, in their switch from home planets in our neighborhood to places too far away to be observed. And until we get some specific reports from predominately non-Christian cultures, we don't know if Jesus is a 'universal' type for them, or if in India, say, they bring in Krishna. Go ahead, Jim.
ISCNIAcad : Something that ties together a few of the themes you've mentioned is the idea that Armageddon (our... own image, and a religious image) is coming, and they are going to pick the Chosen People. Have you hear these types of reports? ga
ThunderK : Not too often, but in one case (Pat in TAKEN) the aliens told her they were angels, 'but not as you were taught' and they also implied that they were cloning bodies to have ready for the resurrection of course, in other reports, the cloning explanation has been far different! I can't believe that we're already running out of time, just when things are getting good, but it's about time to shut down for tonight and hopefully continue in our folder. Charley, you can have the next comment, and then Michael. ga
ISCNIMikeL : Karla, it's your choice, but you can continue at least another 15 minutes. ga
ThunderK : I wish I could, but I need to keep to the schedule tonight. Charley, ga
KnoSys : Dinner awaits.
ThunderK : We should pursue our own ideas about the alien comments during the week, please! And I will check into the folder daily and respond. I hope the rest of you will also take advantage of our folder and toss in your ideas, too. Some of you are apparently reluctant to dive in but please know that you will not be ridiculed or face any derision for your comments! Let's make this a very productive week in the folder, ok?
KnoSys : sounds good
TX90829 : Good night everyone!
ISCNIMikeL : Great work, Karla. <clapping>